Henry Rollins: “My interest is to get women off the sidelines”

Henry Rollins, ladies and gentlemen – the mighty Henry Rollins is here! And my word, did we Bristolians welcome him with open arms – apart from the pro-lifer who threw a pint of beer over him, but, y’know, there’s nowt so queer as folk.

In anticipation of his sold-out spoken word gig at Bristol’s St George’s last night, Henry was kind enough to spare me some time for an interview.

“I wouldn’t dare waste the audience’s time”

I first saw Henry live last August in Belfast, on an earlier date in his seemingly never-ending The Long March tour, which is taking him all around the world and back again. Much of the material was essentially the same, but it certainly didn’t feel like I’d heard it before as Henry had moved everything on and adapted stories to suit his current frame of mind.

Henry confirms: “The material is constantly evolving and new things are working their way into the set all the time. I have to keep the material moving with the world. There are certainly stories I will tell that don’t change as they are what they are, but aspects of the stories will make themselves more known as the nights go on. New material is always good. I never want to ‘dial it in’ so I always want new things to talk about. I go out onstage with a total idea as to what I am going to talk about. I don’t like leaving things up to chance. I wouldn’t dare waste the audience’s time searching for some idea onstage.”

And it is this respect for his audiences that really shines through when you watch Henry’s performance. This is a man who is so sure of his place in life that he has an opinion on virtually everything, and it pretty much always makes sense.

That said, Henry is also a man who in his book Get In The Van (published in 1994, and consisting of his Black Flag tour diaries from 1981-1986) seems to have little patience for the grim existence of life in England in the early 1980s. So I ask him if his opinion of the UK has changed in more recent years.

“The first few times coming here were hard for me,” he says. “I can’t explain to you how much British music means to me. When Black Flag came here and caught so much grief from bands whose records I had bought with my minimum wage earnings, it was such a bummer. Thankfully, it wasn’t all bad. The Damned and the UK Subs, two of the best bands ever, were very cool to us and are friends to this day. When I started coming here with my band in 1987, things got a lot better and many years and literally hundreds of shows in England later, it’s one of my favorite places to be.”

One of the most noticeable things about Black Flag, and many of the bands they toured with, were that they were effectively politically correct before political correctness became ‘a thing’ that people tried too hard to be. I wondered where that consciousness came from?

“I would not say that Black Flag was politically correct,” states Henry. “We were political. Authority didn’t like us and we didn’t like it. Punk rock in those days was pretty PC as there were a lot of females in those local scenes. It depended where you went. Where I come from, Washington DC, that was a very PC scene. PC to the point of being almost sexless, which to me, just isn’t real. That’s an act or some kind of sadistic restraint. All those young people? Come on! It had a great effect on me. California was a whole different thing altogether. I got out there and immediately started getting hit on by women, it was very rock and roll as you might say. I felt very alone in that scene.”

“It is the misogynist, racist, homophobic minority that should be called out, marginalised, voted out, shouted down, whatever way you have to get them out of the way so the rest of us can get down the road”

Having mentioned that there were a lot of women around the punk scene that Henry was involved with, I ask if he’d define himself as a feminist… “I would not,” he says. “I think at this point to call myself one would only impede progress for male-female equality. I am not trying to be coarse. My interest is to get women off the sidelines. For a man to call himself a feminist at this point, while no doubt well-intentioned, is keeping equality somewhat tied down.”

He goes on to clarify: “I am a human, male. I acknowledge female humans and other males as my equal and deserving of civil and human rights. Period. This is where it should be. Homo or hetero, I do not care. It is the misogynist, racist, homophobic minority that should be called out, marginalised, voted out, shouted down, whatever way you have to get them out of the way so the rest of us can get down the road. I threw out the notion of being a feminist a few years ago. I would rather be considered a humanist.”

And what of the women whose lives you’ve seen in other communities? You’re extremely well traveled, as you talk about a lot in you live shows… what have you noticed about the lives of women in more remote countries? “In many African countries I have been to, the women fetch the water, do incredible amounts of work and in many cultures, are revered and respected,” he says. “It is strange to go from that to a place like Saudi Arabia, where women seem to be hidden away and treated as something other than a human being. For a western type, it’s a strange thing to see and at times, difficult to tolerate.”

“As an older guy, I am mad at famine, inequality, deregulation, banker graft,
war, globalisation, cruelty and things like that”

On that note of tolerance, or the lack of it, I ask Henry if he finds himself getting   more or less angry as he gets older, and whether the things that make him angry have changed with time? “I have gotten more angry, I’m afraid,” Henry simply says, before adding: “The sources of the anger have changed. When I was younger, I was mad at the guy who gave me the bad review, or the bass player who was doing whatever, or the girl who rejected me – basically, lightweight stuff. I was also mad at how I was raised and some real things like that. As an older guy, I am mad at famine, inequality, deregulation, banker graft, war, globalisation, cruelty and things like that. The girl doesn’t like me thing means nothing to me at this point, that’s too lightweight for me.”

Wrapping up, and (at this point) in anticipation of seeing Henry live in Bristol’s wonderful St George’s, I ask if he ever gets any time to himself and, if so, what he does with it? Somehow, I can’t imagine Henry Rollins sitting back with a takeaway pizza, watching Deal or No Deal… “I don’t have a television, believe it or not,” he tells me. “I get a fair share of down time. I go to the gym a lot. Post show, I get time to let the parts settle. I go online and look at things, listen to music, read, write. Most of the time though. I am active and working on something. That’s how I have always been, a kind of nervous, energetic type. I am trying to make the most of my time and what luck I have had come my way.”

So, on that note… it’s on with the show:

Henry Rollins at St George’s, Bristol – Tuesday, January 17

Let’s lay our cards on the table when it comes to this US punk icon: I own all of his albums, virtually all of his books and all but one his spoken word albums. Last night was the fourth time I’ve seen him perform spoken word live. I’m a fan.

Henry’s enthusiasm for life, culture and politics is infectious. He has turned me – and numerous others – on to great music and books. We might have got there eventually, but the urgency with which Rollins speaks got us there faster.

If you know Rollins’ work, then this review isn’t for you. You know what to expect. At exactly 8pm, a muscled mesomorph with tightly-cropped grey hair pounds on to the stage, takes the microphone in his left hand, wraps the cord around the same hand three times, plants his feet, and hits it, hits it hard. It’s a ‘relaxed’ version of the stance with which he attacked audiences of the Rollins Band for years when his nightly mission was to destroy the crowd with the power of his music. This is spoken word, and while it lacks the raw wattage and physical bruising of a Rollins Band or Black Flag performance, the intent and intensity are the same.

For two hours and 36 minutes, Rollins powers through anecdotes, jokes, opinions and minor epic prose-poems on his daily life. He also includes his recent travels (Vietnam, North Korea, Haiti, Tibet…), celebrities he has encountered (and on occasion terrified), and more. No umms, no ahhs, no sips of water. It’s seriously impressive.

At the height of the Rollins Band fame, the UK music press portrayed him as a tortured Nietzschean figure. The aggression, the songs of pain, and the superficial resemblance to a Brit-lensed stereotype of an American marine made him seem like the anti-Morrissey. Rollins’ goading of Brit indie bands for their weakness and lack of work ethic added to the press’ image. Indeed, his earlier spoken word, for example on the album Big Ugly Mouth, is a thanatotic rage. There are gags, but even those feel pained.

The difference between then and now is that while the anger has not diminished, this is a fully accomplished performer. Rollins hits the same subject matter as he has for decades – his anger at prejudice, injustice and at times the downright stupidity of human beings. But in 2012, Rollins can take an audience wherever he wants.

From mentally enervating tales of human suffering, to hilarious throwaway lines about shopping, he holds the audience’s attention whatever tone he cares to take. This is not to say that Rollins panders, but rather that he has skill and persuasive power to give people what they want even when they didn’t know they wanted it. It’s impossible that everyone at St George’s last night agrees with Rollins on all subjects, but we all wanted to hear him tell us about it, whatever it is.

The exception that proves this came nearly two hours into the show. Rollins was explaining that while he is not religious, he has no problems with religion per se, the exception being when so-called pro-life Christian groups try to dictate what a woman can do with her body. His statement was punctuated by a plastic pint glass, which blindsided him and hit the stage just to his left. The woman who threw it from the balcony had already vacated her seat and, presumably, the building by the time Rollins drew up. His reply began: “By the way, you’re a coward…” and ended with an offer to meet him outside where they could discuss the subject, or she could simply do her worst if she wanted. Do not doubt that at 10.37pm Rollins was waiting outside St George’s, eager to make good on his offer.

The incident added to the performance. His response reminded anyone who may have forgotten just who Henry Rollins is and where he came from. This is a man who in Black Flag shows was spat on, kicked, punched and cigarette-burned by ‘fans’. There is YouTube footage of a fan who made the mistake of trying to grab the singer’s microphone, and being told not to by the end of the singer’s fist. This is a man who at a Rollins Band performance took to the stage with such ferocious intensity that when he planted his foot in front of him and brought his head down to deliver the first line of the first song, they connected with such force that he knocked himself out for a few seconds, before stumbling to his feet and careening through the rest of the set with concussion while spraying blood all over the band from the head wound. This is a man who, in 1991, looked down the barrel of a gun and witnessed the death of his best friend when the two of them were robbed in front of their LA house.

So the question is: Why bother throwing a plastic pint glass at the man? What was the point? And if you are that highly-strung that 20 seconds of monologue in criticism of ‘pro-life’ authoritarianism sends you into a foot-stamping hissy-fit, then why the hell go to see any spoken word performance that isn’t delivered from a pulpit?

If you haven’t seen Rollins perform spoken word before, or heard his music or read his books, but you are interested in fast-talking, high protein culture, then check him out. Either you’ll be desperate to see him again straightaway (like 99.98% of last night’s audience), or you’ll throw something at him and walk out (0.02%). Either way, it’s called art.

I said at the beginning that if you were familiar with Rollins then this review wasn’t for you. There is one thing I would urge though: he tours constantly. The Long March Tour runs all this year and into 2013. Therefore, it’s relatively easy to see him. However, don’t wait for the next one. Do it now. If there was one message from Rollins’ performance last night, it was that we only live one life. Don’t miss out.

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Interview by @MadamJMo

Gig review by @Redlife77

For details of other dates on Henry’s tour, please visit the tour page of his website by clicking here.

For more information of upcoming gigs at St Georges in Bristol, please visit their website by clicking here.

The feminist and the sex shop owner… An interview

How does a self-styled erotic boutique differ from Ann Summers or an old-fashioned Soho sex shop? Despite a few cursory visits to Pomegranate on Bristol’s Park Street, I remained unclear. So I met with owner Amy Whittaker to find out what it is Pomegranate does that is so different or liberating for women. (I should add at this point that while I’m pro-sex, I’m NOT pro the sex industry.)

The shop, with its dusky purple frontage, nestles between bars, clothes shops and cafes on Bristol’s equivalent of London’s Regent Street. It has a window that (at the time of my visit) showed an extremely expensive and anatomically incorrect purple vibrator, among other things. In the past, the window has offered crotchless knickers and peephole bras on a headless mannequin, and a wicker hamper full of honeymoon treats for Wills and Kate. On the opening evening, burlesque dancers performed in the window for the, err, pleasure of those on the street. Classy.

Inside, Pomegranate is trying to create a boutique look. But it feels rather hard and cold, not the soft and sensuous boudoir I’d anticipated. There is lots of black and purple painted wood, and changing cubicles with a peep show-style booth in between. It feels a little grubby… but not in a saucy way.

However, owner Amy is delightful. She’s smiley and friendly, and assures me that after a year or so of being in business pretty much nothing embarrasses her.

PHTHALATE-FREE TOYS

My cynical side cocks an eyebrow at the nod to ethical trading with Fairtrade condoms, Soil Association approved lube, and phthalate-free toys. But undeniably, all of these are good things. Apparently, the Fairtrade condoms were stocked after Amy visited Central America and met women’s groups there. She explains: “It was inspiring seeing these women in poor countries setting up small businesses to support their families. So we wanted to bring some inspiration from that into Pomegranate. I wanted to have the same ethics and values. Admittedly, it’s not quite the same here!” Err… no!

And you can’t argue with the phthalate-free toys. Pomegranate’s website boasts: “We are extremely proud that all of our products are phthalate free. … We learnt about phthalates recently, and decided on a personal level to steer clear (words like more research needed, toxic, infertility, cancer etc will do that). We can’t then morally sell toys containing phthalates to our customers, so we don’t.” Good.

However, Pomegranate’s main stock is a wide range of lingerie, toys, books etc, and all at a varied budget – from under £10 to £6,000 for a golden vibrator (although Amy admits she hasn’t sold one yet!).

THE CORPORATE PORNIFICATION OF FEMINISM

But I wonder if this type of sex shop (I’m sorry, I just can’t call it an “erotic boutique”) isn’t just another link to the corporate pornification of feminism. We’re a long way from a post-feminist society, and sadly all around us the message is shouted at women that they need to look like a synthesised version of sexy in order to be successful and attractive, and men are bombarded with images of how a synthethically sexy women looks (which of course is nothing like a human woman). It's got so bad that there are even some porn sites for men who have a fetish for "normal" women. Good grief!

And this is part of my problem with sex shops. Call them “erotic boutiques” if you will, but they still exist to sell products to women (and some men) to make themselves look sexy to their partners (who are mostly men). Yes, some of the products are for solo enjoyment, but the majority are to make a woman look more sexy for her partner – presumably because the theory is that on her own she just isn’t very sexy.

We sadly live in a world where women are expected to do anything sexually in order to prove that they’re not frigid – which is largely the fault of the porn industry. And last Saturday’s Muff March in London’s Harley Street cocked a snook to the labioplasty surgeons that designer vaginas (as glorified by the porn industry) are neither healthy nor sexy.

Amy’s response to my inevitable question about whether or not she’s a feminist goes like this: “My understanding of feminism is it’s the cause to advance women’s place in society to an equal place with men. We should do this by helping each other to be the best we can be, individually and collectively.”

She continues: “Women are harsh critics. Mostly of themselves but also of other women. It’s not my place to judge how other women live or the choices they make - or rather, I will judge, I’m human, but I’ll hold that judgement to myself. It’s feminism’s role to ensure that women are in a position where choices are available to them.”

So how does Pomegranate fit with your idea of feminism?

“That depends on the feminist!” says Amy. “If the stereotypical dungaree wearing, man hating, frigid lesbian feminist still exists, then perhaps not very well! In 2011 though, I think Pomegranate’s aim of giving women greater sexual confidence to enjoy greater sexual pleasure is a natural fit with feminism.

“Putting to one side society’s demands that women are either virgins, whores or mothers, I believe that every woman, and man, has the right, in the UK, in 2011, to enjoy a healthy, pleasurable sex life. Whether they want no sex at all, masturbation only, sex with lots of partners, monogamy or polyamory, as long as they’re doing it safely, who are we, as feminists, to judge? Shouldn’t we be celebrating the freedom that women have here to live the sexual life they desire?”

“WHAT’S SEXY? WHAT ISN’T?”

There are no formal conditions when opening a shop like Pomegranate – it is only if a sex shop is licensed (ie, it can sell R18 DVDs etc) that the licencing committee take an interest. But Amy stresses she always gives thought as to what goes in the window: “A big part of what we’re doing is not being shy. But there’s definitely a balance, as kids walk up and down the street and we take that very seriously… but you’ve got to have some fun with it as well.”

That said, Amy adds that only 30% of her stock is supposed to be explicitly for sex. Looking around at the books of sexual positions, the multitude of vibrators, and the variety of handcuffs, I ask what the 70% of not explicitly sexual stock consists of. “Lingerie,” Amy says, but I look unconvinced. She continues: “But that’s my point – what’s sexy, what isn’t?” Pointing to a row of black basques behind her, she says: “I would say those basques are not sex related, it’s just nice clothing.” Hmm.

What else is not explicitly for sex? “The organic lube that we stock – is that for health?” What else would it be used for? “Apparently, it’s good for dry knees.” Realising it’s a thin argument, Amy adds: “Obviously the lube is a fine line as it’s primarily used for sex. But the love eggs, which strengthen the pelvic floor, they’re good for incontinence and pregnancy, because you carry your baby better and heal quicker as the blood flow is stronger. They’re also good for sex, as the blood flow is stronger.”

What about the games and the books that you sell? They’re clearly about and for sex. Amy begins: “If they were in John Lewis…” I interrupt laughing: “But they wouldn’t be stocked in John Lewis!” Amy starts to argue the defence for a game called Nookie, then relents: “I guess I can’t argue that it’s for anything but sex, but the thing is you learn more about your partner… Yeah, it’s about sex!”

BODY IMAGES

The attitude at Pomegranate is that they “don’t judge, but try to give women sexual confidence”. And whether this is through enlisting a woman onto one of the regular evening classes, or selling her a strap-on dildo, Amy says: “We’re trying to say that having sex is OK, whether you’re having it regularly with one partner, or having it with millions of different partners, just do it safely, do it well so you enjoy it, and take responsibility. You’ve got to look after yourself.”

I point out that on Pomegranate’s website, on the vibrators page, it says that the shop doesn’t stock “ugly lifelike monstrosities”, yet the evening classes and the ethos of the shop seems to include promoting a healthy body perception to women. But doesn’t that also apply to men?

“I guess it could be double standards,” Amy says. “When I wrote it, I was thinking of those jelly sex toys, and to me that’s trying to be lifelike. That’s what I was thinking of. The dildos in the realistic colour with the ridges and anatomical detail.”

CONCLUSION

I was probably never going to be convinced by Pomegranate, and as much as I liked Amy and admired her for running her own business (and in such a harsh economical climate), after our conversation I felt no clearer about what role a sex shop has in promoting realistic attitudes about sex in men and women. The stock is largely aimed at trussing women up to (apparently) look appealing for men.

There are pros and cons, in my mind, about a shop like Pomegranate – toxin-free toys are obviously a great thing, affordable prices are also good, and the evening classes sound like they could be positive experiences. I also like the way Amy teams up with other independent businesses nearby.

But I’m still struggling with the mountain of ideological problems about needing to spend money to be sexy (surely sex is the most basic and natural thing we’ve got?!), and largely marketing these products at women rather than men – as if being sexy and having good sex is yet another responsibility of women. And the further implications that women have “failed” in their “natural duty” unless they cough up for expensive gadgets and strap themselves into uncomfortable-looking gear.

The issue of sex shops is an enormous one, and I can’t do it justice in one post. I’m grateful to Amy for sparing time to talk with me and for making me so welcome in her shop, and I admire her for being an independent businesswoman. But I’m not convinced that a sex shop (whether Pomegranate or any similar business) has any place in the post-patriarchal feminist future.

Pomegranate is hosting a Christmas shopping event on December 15, from 4-8pm. Tickets are free, but click here for more information.

Meet the men who *really* understand feminism...

There’s a book that’s just been published – and while it’s a pity it wasn’t published centuries ago, at least it’s in print now. The Guy’s Guide to Feminism by Dr Michael Kaufman and Dr Michael Kimmel (Seal Publishing) hit the shelves this November, and should surely be an essential present for all the teenagers in your lives this Christmas.

Written in an A-Z format (and using mechanisms from jokes to cartoons to lists and scripts), The Guy’s Guide to Feminism covers more than 100 topics in an accessible, informative and straight-talking way. Of course, the book isn’t always light-hearted – it would be impossible to write about, for instance, FGM or rape in any way other than factual and straight. But the overall tone is friendly, approachable and gently suggests: ‘Maybe this is another way to think about things.’

Quite why such a book has never existed before (to my knowledge) is a pity, but thank goodness it’s here now. And the fact it has been co-authored by two such well-respected feminist men only adds to the authority and weight of the book. Dr Michael Kaufman is not only a co-founder of the global White Ribbon Campaign, but he also works with the United Nations to help end gender-based violence. And Dr Michael Kimmel is one of the leading researchers and writers on men and masculinity in the world, and has authored around 20 books on the topic. So you know you’re in safe hands here!

Dr Kaufman (he's on Twitter as @GenderEQ) was recently kind enough to spare me some time to answer a few questions about The Guy’s Guide to Feminism and how the book came to be.

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How much demand had there been for you to write this book in the first place? I imagine it was high because I can’t think of a similar book.

“We actually started writing this book 18 years ago! But it’s only in the past few years, with the emergence of a new wave of feminism and with the ever-increasing realisation that we must engage men and boys to achieve gender equality, that we really found the right voice for it… and also found a publisher!”

        

Had you worked with Dr Kimmel before? How did that collaboration come about?     

“Yes, we’ve been friends and colleagues for 26 years. He’s had articles in some of my books and vice versa.”

Is the launch of the book accompanied by a tour of schools and universities etc?

“Unfortunately, the US/Canadian publisher is a small, feminist publisher [Seal Publishing] without a budget for that type of tour. But both Michael and I speak in a lot of communities and on campuses each year, so we’ll be bringing the book and its message with us.       

“I’m working up a new talk/semi-performance piece based on The Guy’s Guide to Feminism. I’m looking forward to launching it in the new year. It’s working title is: The Guy’s Guide to Feminism: The Talk. The Rant. The Conversation We Really Need To Have.”

What do you think are the best ways for young men to get involved with feminism? Part of the trouble seems to be (and your book is part of the solution to addressing this) that feminism is still often seen as unfashionable and out of date. Many people think women and men are equal (including a lot of women!). What do you think are the best steps a young man can take to become more involved?

“There is no end of things! I encourage men to ask women about their experiences and simply listen and learn. Or start a White Ribbon Campaign in their school, campus or workplace. Figure out how to best challenge sexist and homophobic language and jokes. Get informed: yes, things have improved around gender equality – but that’s because we’ve had 40 years of a vibrant women’s movement, yet we still have a way to go. And don’t fall for the idiotic media stereotypes about feminists and feminism.”

What kind of feedback have you had to the book from the young men who are your target audience? Young men who might not have previously been so sure that feminism was anything to do with them?

        

“So far we’re getting a great response from young men. They see this book and our use of humour and they realise they can read about gender equality, learn about feminism, and be in support of gender equality without their dicks falling off!”

I think there can be issues sometimes with pro-feminist men who are very well intentioned but sometimes come across as a little patronising, or as if they are telling women what to do – however unintentionally. I hasten to add that your book doesn't do this! But what do you think the solution is? I agree that men are vital on the journey to gender equality, but I definitely think women need to lead the way – otherwise we won't be achieving equality on our own terms. It seems a tricky area...

“Sometimes pro-feminist men feel they need to prove their pro-feminist credentials for women. They end up holding forth, lecturing, to prove themselves. It’s yet another form of men’s performance anxiety! I say: ‘Chill! Struggle to live your life based on equality in relationships and friendships. Keep examining your own behavior and language. Learn to challenge sexism and abuse. But also live your life with delight, humour, and grace!’”

Do you ever get a hostile reaction from other men because you’re a feminist, and because you promote gender equality?

      

“Of course! There are anti-woman, anti-feminist men’s rights types who spend their time attacking and criticising men like me. I suppose they figure we’re traitors to patriarchy! But far more men support what I do.”

I wish you both would come to England and lead some seminars or workshops at the growing number of national feminist conferences we have. What are the chances?! You'd be very welcome!

“I come to the UK every year. I’m currently trying to pull together a speaking tour in late February. I hope to do some half-day or, better, full-day training on engaging men and boys to promote gender equality and end violence against women. Also, I hope to arrange some talks, including on my new theme: The Guy’s Guide to Feminism: The Talk. The Rant. The Conversation We Really Need To Have.”

The Guy's Guide to Feminism has a dedicated website here. 

Billy Bragg interview: “We need more opinionated women”

Photo: Michael Barbour

After 30+ years as one of our most-respected protest singers, Billy Bragg has never been more relevant than now. In these turbulent days of mass occupations in major cities, industrial strike action and deep-rooted recession, Billy’s no-nonsense approach to trying to change the way we operate makes a lot of sense.

This Sunday and Monday, Billy was in Bristol – primarily for a sold-out gig at the Fleece & Firkin on Monday, but also to perform at the Occupy Bristol camp on College Green, and a spontaneous gig at the recently opened Occupy UWE camp. Throw in getting some rhyming slang for shit on BBC Radio Bristol, and Billy was kept busy on his flying visit.

He also kindly made time to talk with me, and I had the pleasure of catching the end of his soundcheck before his gig – which included a chorus of Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want: an extra treat for me as it never made it’s way onto the final playlist.

“SHIT COMES AROUND AND GOES AROUND”

With a career as enduring as Billy’s, it could seem depressing that his songs warning of Thatcherite hell are so relevant again. But he takes it in his stride, saying: “That’s the trouble if you write topical songs.” Bringing it into a more recent perspective, and linking to one of his newer songs (Never Buy The Sun), he adds: “When the Milly Dowler phone-hacking scandal broke, people were saying ‘You’ve got to rewrite the lyrics to It Says Here’, and I thought I probably should. So I looked at them and thought, ‘Actually, you know what, I don’t have to rewrite them at all’. That’s the sad thing about being a topical songwriter – shit comes around and goes around.”

And while that’s true, this has been a particularly busy week for the population concerned with standing up to the shit that’s doing the circuit. Today (Wednesday), Billy was in London supporting the mass public sector industrial action. “Our political discourse has become so shameful that the leader of the Labour party – the LEADER of the LABOUR party – can’t even come out and support public sector workers when there’s industrial action.”

All being well, Billy’s plan was to record vox pops for Radio Five Live… “I’ll be talking to Tories,” he laughs, “Trying to be impartial.” There’s a pause before he wryly adds: “We’ll see what happens.”

“DOING WOODY’S WORK”

What’s been happening since October are the Occupy camps, which are growing in number weekly. The main Bristol occupation on College Green is the second biggest in the UK after St Paul’s, and is gaining in strength all the time – despite concerns from some people that the demands of the camps are unclear, and that women’s issues have not been fully engaged with.

Yet Billy insists he’s seen no evidence of women being sidelined at the Bristol camp or any other. “All I can say is a woman introduced me on stage, a woman sorted me out when I got down there, a woman showed me where to go and what to do. That’s not uncommon. But I think there always is a male thing going on, and as night falls it becomes more macho.”

Expanding on this, Billy adds: “I was down there last night [Sunday] after dark and it was quite Neolithic. People come out of the woodwork after dark, people who may be sleeping on the streets and are tempted by a fire and maybe some beer… There’s bound to be people who are not completely signed up to the programme who want to come for a bit of warmth and company.”

For all that, the Occupy movement has fired Billy with enthusiasm, not least because the spirit of the movement is so closely aligned to his own reason for becoming a protest singer. “The reason I’m here is that I work for a man called Woody Guthrie,” Billy explains, referring to the American protest singer who died in the 1960s. “Woody Guthrie never did a gig like this where he had a dressing room and a rider and someone selling t-shirts. He played schools and picket lines and occupations. So I have to do that, too.”

In reference to his performance at Occupy UWE that afternoon, he added: “I was saying to the students: ‘I’m thanking you, I have to be here because of who I am and what I believe in. But you’re students, you don’t have to be here. So salute you, never mind me. I’m supposed to be up here, I’m Billy Bragg, I’m doing Woody’s work.”

There are many people who have called the Occupy movement wishy washy and complained it is unclear what the demands are, but Billy simply says it depends what expectations you have. “The globalisation movement smashed shop windows and burned cars. You can smash up branches of McDonalds all day long, nothing’s going to happen,” he states. “What’s happening now, though, is different. While all those demonstrations were going in the 1990s, and with the miners’ strikes in the 1980s, capitalism was rampant. Now capitalism is flat on its arse and something has got to change because we’re all up against the wall.”

When pushed on what that change might be, he says: “In a very broad sense, it’s all about accountability. Those who have economic power over us – the bankers, the multinationals, the lobbyists – those people must be held to account. If it was down to me, I would have publically funded political parties and have all lobbying be transparent. Nothing should be done behind closed doors. Why do our politicians want to say things that are off record? We employ them! They are our employees. They should be accountable to us.”

Yet his faith in the current Occupy movement is clear: “I have confidence in them to articulate a compassionate ideal in a way that’s not tarnished by totalitarianism, in a way that’s not held back by what happened in 1917, that looks forward to 2017 and what kind of world we want to live in. Not how Lenin did it, or Trotsky did it. That doesn’t work anymore. Marx isn’t the problem: Marxists are the problem. Those sour old bastards! They need to stop lecturing and start listening.”

“IT WAS WOMEN’S VOTES THAT
SET UP THE WELFARE STATE”

It would be impossible for me, as a feminist activist, not to ask Billy where he stands on equal rights for women and feminism. “How would you define feminism?,” he muses. “I’m a socialist but there’s a lot of different definitions of a socialist.” There are a lot of different definitions of a feminist, too, I say. “I believe that women should have equal pay with men. Does that make me a feminist? I believe that childcare should be provided free. Does that make me a feminist? I do the washing up at home. Does that make me a feminist?” I laugh and say that I don’t think it’ a question of ticking boxes! “In that case, in the sense that I believe we should live in a fair and equal society, then I’d like to think I’m a feminist. But I’m also a disablist, a gayest…” Well, I think they all go hand in hand… “Yes, that’s true.”

But when talking about the history of union membership, Billy stresses it was thanks to women’s suffrage in 1928 that the election of 1945 saw the roots of the NHS being planted.

“In 1945, we had the first election where women’s votes really counted,” he says. “A lot of people say that the 1945 election was about soldiers. It wasn’t. Women under the age of 30 first got the vote in 1928, and then there wasn’t an election between 1931 and 1945. So an entire tranche of young women with children had come in, and it was their votes that set up the welfare state. Not the soldiers’.” He’s quick to add: “The soldiers did vote for a better world, but the significant thing was the untapped bulge of young women of childbearing age who did not want to go through what their mothers went through. That was the vote that made the welfare state.”

“ANARCHY IN A POLITICAL SENSE”

When the UK riots kicked off in August, Billy was in America and he says it was extraordinary hearing over the wires what was happening at home. “I couldn’t get a handle on it. What was it about? It was weird,” he says, still sounding baffled and saddened by what happened. “I saw rioters had burned down the Westbury Arms in Barking where I come from, and I couldn’t understand that. What would they do that? It was totally illogical in the sense that previous riots had been focussed on some sense of social anger. And although it began with the death of Mark Duggan, it quickly descended into a free for all. It didn’t have a focus.”

What was highlighted at the time, and is the only thing we can salvage from the riots, were the volunteers who selflessly cleaned up the mess. “The anarchy to me was the people who came the next day and swept it all up without being organised. That’s real proper anarchy. That’s what anarchy is in a political sense.”

“THE TIME IS COMING WHEN YOU
CAN MAKE POLITICAL MUSIC AGAIN”

With the clock ticking towards Billy’s time on stage, I was anxious not to keep him too long. But I wanted to know if he thought it would be possible for a new protest singer-songwriter to enjoy the same longevity that he has? “Five years ago I’d have said it’d be really difficult, because any kid starting out would have been going against the tide,” he says. “But now, with the Occupy movement…”

I ask if he worries that the Simon Cowell-ification of the music industry – an industry that synthesises an unidentifiable, characterless, soulless puppet for a TV series, who is then forgotten three months later – is deadening our ability to recognise real talent. “Abba were number one all the way through punk,” Billy states. “The only punks who got anywhere near the top of the charts were Blondie. The Sex Pistols, The Clash… forget it. They never got anywhere near the mainstream.”

Returning to opportunities for new talent, he adds: “I think the time is coming when you can make political music again, because it’s hard to make it without political context. I’ve managed to keep going because I’ve found an audience that connects with it. I’ve spent my time looking at issues and connecting with things like Woody Guthrie.

“The thing that worries me now is that what supported what I did is no longer there, which is the NME, Sounds and Melody Maker. When I was making political music 30 years ago, the editors of those three papers were children of 1968, they believed that music was the alternative lingua franca. That was how we talked to one another, it was how I talked to my parents’ generation as a working-class person. The only medium available to me was to buy a guitar and learn to play and write songs. But that’s all gone. Even the NME pours piss on anyone who’s political now.”

And it’s not just the printed music press, as we also have a whole world of online commentary to deal with now. And Billy is not a fan of Facebook: “People think they’re engaged but they’re not in the way that the audience will engage with me tonight, I promise you that. Facebook likes are not the same as coming together.”

I ask if he gets much abuse online. He says he doesn’t, adding: “You know why I don’t get as much abuse as you? Because my genitals are outside my body. Women with opinions get a lot more shit. Some people cannot stand the idea of a smart woman voicing an opinion. But we should stand up to people who are abusive to women online. Your freedom of speech isn’t freedom to be abusive.”

It’s time to wrap up and for Billy to grab some food before he goes on stage, but as a parting shot he says: “The younger generation are in the throes of discovery and energised by everything. And we need more opinionated women.”

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The Bristol gig was the last night of Billy’s tour, and his set closed with him calling on stage both of his support acts – Sound of Rum and Akala – and the three vocalists performing an extended version of the 1931 union anthem Which Side Are You On? With lyrics rewritten to take in our contemporary situations, the affirmations from the audience were overpowering but not nearly so much as Akala’s repeated opening chant of “We are the 99%” – truly spine-tingling. 

If the future is in the hands of women and men now, as much as the creation of the welfare state was in 1945, then women and men need to jointly keep fighting in solidarity to ensure we keep the NHS and don't let the bankers grind us down.